Problem of Human Suffering

Is there an incompatibility between the concept of a loving and merciful God, and the reality of life?

[sexi irish]

free will....... god isnt all controlling

[The Girl From Ipanema]

or is free will part of God's divine plan....is it really free will....or does God know what we will choose in life?

this is like one of the most difficult things to figure out....I don't think it's really possible to debate it.....I could be wrong though

[§ØLÌÐ*§ÇØÛŠÊ]

I understand the concept of freewill when used to defend the existance of God.

But the same people who use this argument also consider abortion and contraception to be a mortal sin. If God allows wars and famine because of freewill then surely it is freewill that has given us the technology for simple contraception and painless abortion, why are we not supposed to use that freewill that God gave us but we are allowed to start wars because of freewill?

[sexi irish]

Originally Posted by §ØLÃŒÃ�*§ÇØÛÅ*Ê

I understand the concept of freewill when used to defend the existance of God.

But the same people who use this argument also consider abortion and contraception to be a mortal sin. If God allows wars and famine because of freewill then surely it is freewill that has given us the technology for simple contraception and painless abortion, why are we not supposed to use that freewill that God gave us but we are allowed to start wars because of freewill?

we can use our free will in any way we want to
god says we shudnt use it in relation to abortion and wars and stuff
but its free will god doesnt limit us in our free will
we choose what to do
in my opinion He can show us the way
but he wont force us into taking it
free willl has given us the means and method for abortions and contraceptives etc and we can exercise our free will to use them
but our faith tells us we shudnt
and we use our free will to make the choice
either to use them or not

[Western_Samurai]

Originally Posted by sexi irish

we can use our free will in any way we want to
god says we shudnt use it in relation to abortion and wars and stuff
but its free will god doesnt limit us in our free will
we choose what to do
in my opinion He can show us the way
but he wont force us into taking it
free willl has given us the means and method for abortions and contraceptives etc and we can exercise our free will to use them
but our faith tells us we shudnt
and we use our free will to make the choice
either to use them or not

i agree:
no free will=no choice;
no choice therefore no ability to be good or bad;
it's that's simple

As far as suffering goes, if God prevented all bad things from happening to us then we'd never have a choice because one bad thing a person does will always invariably harm another.

I don't believe in God but i understand that concept. And of course in some forms of christianity, like the christianity predominant in America, there's only one choice that matters and whether you're good or bad or not doesn't matter. You can kill 50 million people and still make it into heaven (not referring to ****** so don't correct me)....that always bothered me a little.

[chrisconlin]

Originally Posted by Prettz

Is there an incompatibility between the concept of a loving and merciful God, and the reality of life?

No, I do not believe that it is incompatible at all. I will make an attempt to expound on why I believe this to be true later but first I would like to know how YOU would create a world in which NO suffering occurred WITHOUT taking away the freedom of every individual to choose what they may or may not do with it.

[chrisconlin]

Originally Posted by Western_Samurai

i agree:
no free will=no choice;
no choice therefore no ability to be good or bad;
it's that's simple

As far as suffering goes, if God prevented all bad things from happening to us then we'd never have a choice because one bad thing a person does will always invariably harm another.

I don't believe in God but i understand that concept. And of course in some forms of christianity, like the christianity predominant in America, there's only one choice that matters and whether you're good or bad or not doesn't matter. You can kill 50 million people and still make it into heaven (not referring to ****** so don't correct me)....that always bothered me a little.

I agree that there is one important choice (from a Christian point of view) that matters above all. What one decides to do with the question of who Christ is and what He did. I however can not agree with you when you say that being good or bad does not matter though. If you will be patient for a moment while I quote the Christian Bible. I understand not everyone believes the Bible and what it says, my point is to show that to simply believe in Christ is not all that is required to enter heaven. According to scripture Christ never taught that himself.

Luke 6: 46-49 " But why do you call me Lord, Lord, and do not do the things which I say?..." (Can pick up a bible and read the rest if you wish )

Luke 6:27-45 (notice that this is what He said just prior to making the above statement) " But I say to you who hear: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, and pray for those who spitefully use you..." ( He goes on and says much more about what a Christian should do with their new found freedom in Him.)

John 14:21, 23 " He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me./ If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word."

The diffrence between an authentic Christian and everyone else (not intended to be disrespectful, please do not take it like that) is the MOTIVE for the good things that they do. It is not to earn anything (such as entrance into heaven), to draw attention to themselves, or any other selfish thing anyone can come up with. An authintic Christian, who truely loves Christ and what He did does the things they do BECAUSE OF what He has done for them. One who goes out and 'kills 50 million people', as you said, does not really love Him and will reap the consequences of his work.

[Gabriel]

Originally Posted by chrisconlin

[/COLOR]

I agree that there is one important choice (from a Christian point of view) that matters above all. What one decides to do with the question of who Christ is and what He did. I however can not agree with you when you say that being good or bad does not matter though. If you will be patient for a moment while I quote the Christian Bible. I understand not everyone believes the Bible and what it says, my point is to show that to simply believe in Christ is not all that is required to enter heaven. According to scripture Christ never taught that himself.

Luke 6: 46-49 " But why do you call me Lord, Lord, and do not do the things which I say?..." (Can pick up a bible and read the rest if you wish )

Luke 6:27-45 (notice that this is what He said just prior to making the above statement) " But I say to you who hear: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, and pray for those who spitefully use you..." ( He goes on and says much more about what a Christian should do with their new found freedom in Him.)

John 14:21, 23 " He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me./ If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word."

The diffrence between an authentic Christian and everyone else (not intended to be disrespectful, please do not take it like that) is the MOTIVE for the good things that they do. It is not to earn anything (such as entrance into heaven), to draw attention to themselves, or any other selfish thing anyone can come up with. An authintic Christian, who truely loves Christ and what He did does the things they do BECAUSE OF what He has done for them. One who goes out and 'kills 50 million people', as you said, does not really love Him and will reap the consequences of his work.

Pst. You can do confession, sincerely mean it, go to mass and take the Eucharist, and voila, you're in a state of grace and can now enter directly into heaven; even if you killed 50 million people.

Among the three fundamental ideas -- sin, redemption, and grace -- grace plays the part of the means, indispensable and Divinely ordained, to effect the redemption from sin through Christ and to lead men to their eternal destiny in heaven.

Source: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06701a.htm


That's the official doctrine.

As for Prettz, I don't understand what he means. Which merciful, loving God? Allah/Jehova/God? A pagan god? What? You can't be so vague about which god you are talking about and expect a specific answer. Even theistic Satanists think their god(Lucifer) is a loving, merciful god.

[Western_Samurai]

I almost forgot about this but I actually did a paper on a poem by Robert Frost that is very pertinent to this thread. Maybe it will spark some thought.



Design
by Robert Frost

I found a dimpled spider, fat and white,
On a white heal-all, holding up a moth
Like a white piece of rigid satin cloth--
Assorted characters of death and blight
Mixed ready to begin the morning right,
Like the ingredients of a witches' broth--
A snow-drop spider, a flower like a froth,
And dead wings carried like a paper kite.

What had that flower to do with being white,
The wayside blue and innocent heal-all?
What brought the kindred spider to that height,
Then steered the white moth thither in the night?
What but design of darkness to appall?--
If design govern in a thing so small.