There is NO god...I'll prove it

That Kid with the Hair · 06-08-2006, 08:09 PM

The argument made about the universe being eternal makes more sense than a god that is eternal. Think of this. An eternal god creating a non-eternal universe violates the second law of thermo-dynamics. this law states....The entropy of an isolated system not at equilibrium will tend to increase over time, approaching a maximum value. entropy is defined as.......... 2. A measure of the disorder or randomness in a closed system.

3. A measure of the loss of information in a transmitted message.

4. The tendency for all matter and energy in the universe to evolve toward a state of inert uniformity.

5. Inevitable and steady deterioration of a system or society.

if it says entropy will increase, that means our universe is deteriorating, and to say that it has always been there is disproved by science itself. scientists agree that the universe had a begining. having said that, it really only leaves two options. either the big bang....or creation.

Assuming the big bang did happen, and it did come from something; that would imply that there was a creator there is an interesting argument against that though which is:
1. The Big Bang has entropy S.
2. A hypothetical god is either orderly or chaotic.
1. Hypothetical gods have a personhood.
2. Personhood implies orderliness.
3. A hypothetical god is orderly, and thus has low entropy. (See note1 for more detail.)
3. In order for god to directly cause the Big Bang, he must have a lower entropy (S-a, where a is positive, real number).
4. The probability of the Big Bang coming from a higher state of entropy (S+b, where b is a positive, real number) approaches P=1, normalizing over the condition of many opportunities for the Big Bang to happen.
5. The probability of the Big Bang coming from an even lower state of entropy (god) approaches Q=0 (since Q=1-P).
6. The difference in probability is thus the limit of 1 divided by the limit of 0, which of course approaches infinity.
7. There is an infinitely greater chance that the Big Bang is the result of randomness than the result of even more order.
8. Thus, god does not exist.

Also there are other scientific theories that the universe has simply always been, and is a constant of the universe and that the universe simply contracts and expands reforming itself. I don't know the details so i can't go into deeper explanation.

Now I have a few questions.

1: Why would god create the universe? If god is perfect he has no needs or wants and thus would have no reason to create the universe.

2:If god is outside space and time, as the creator, it is impossible for him to exist inside space and time. Counter?

3: If god exists then he is all just and all merciful, these two are contradictions. Since these 2 contradict eachother how does god exist?

4: To instill in people free will, god must have free will. God is also omnicient. If god is omnicient it means that he knows everything that will happen. If he knows his own future how can he be free? ( saying he would change the future would be an argument against his perfection because if god must change his mind something he decided must be wrong, making him imperfect.)

5: Man is supposed to have free will. If god is omnicient and knows every action a man will take, it is already predetermined and known. If it is known and predetermined how is it free will?

P.S.--sorry for the terrible grammar and spelling.

Thanks-Dylan

06-08-2006, 08:30 PM

I refuse to believe the Big Bang "did happen," since the theory has had to be modified numerous times to explain why astrophysicists keep finding stars that are OLDER THAN THE UNIVERSE. The theory also cannot explain why every observed galaxy is ACCELERATING towards the edge of the known universe at near-light speeds. There would have to be a force acting upon those galaxies at THIS VERY INSTANT to make that happen. So much for an explosion that occured billions of years ago.

Honestly, I'm disappointed that this theory is still being taught; the scientific community has long since been reduced to trying to keep its absurdities a secret until a better theory comes along. Science and religion have much in common in this regard.

06-08-2006, 08:37 PM

lol.

people need to learn to chillax.

who really cares?

Violent Pacifist · 06-08-2006, 08:39 PM

You just have "God" human characteristics and you forgot the primary issue with "God".... He is omni. He can do whatever it wishes.

06-08-2006, 09:43 PM

Hello, Dylan. Essayist here. Found a few problems with your argument that I would like to discuss. First off, you said you find the idea of an eternal universe makes more sense than an eternal God. It does sound like it makes more sense, at least intuitively. Why invent a God who is eternal to create the universe when you could save yourself a step and say the universe itself is eternal? Let's analyze this, logically. If the universe is eternal, why do stars still exist? Surely they would have used up every last bit of their hydrogen by now (an infinitely long time has passed since eternity ago). Even if you believe in an infinite series of big-bangs and big-crunches, that doesn't explain away the astronomer's observations. Why is it that the rate of expansion is increasing? Why are galaxies moving away from each other, faster? So fast, in fact, that the pull of gravity won't be able to collapse them back together again for another cycle. Because the universe is eternal? Please help me better understand your position in that regard. Eternity can be defined as 'the absence of time' Time itself is a very hard thing to define as it is. It isn't something you can observe directly, but we can see and feel its effects. Think about that; if you were eternal, time doesn't effect you. You could exist everywhere at once. Or perhaps our primitive brains cannot interpret time correctly as its true nature occupies a higher dimension whereas superior brains would see what we interpret as time as clearly as something we interpret at space. I.e., they can see 'motion' directly as opposed to the way we observe motion--which is indirectly.

Your bit about entropy doesn't even apply to sentient beings. Or, to qualify that previous statement, entropy doesn't apply to intelligent beings. Given that you have no clue how intelligent any part of the universe is at any moment in time, or how intelligence and entropy are related (if they are related at all), then you cannot describe the entropy of the 'universe' in any meaningful way.

I will attempt to answer your 5 questions if you will keep an open mind. Sometimes ideas are deemed ridiculous, and answers obscure, simply because the person listening was not listening with an open mind.

1.) Why would god create the universe? He desired to commune with other free, rational beings.

2.) It is impossible for God to exist inside space and time. Maybe. Not because God created space and time, but because he is nonphysical. Space and time are states of physical systems.

3.) If god exists then he is all just and all merciful, these two are contradictions. Since these two contradict each other how does god exist? I'm not quite sure how you concluded that God is all just and all merciful given the assumption that God exists. Please elaborate on that.

4) To instill in people free will, god must have free will. God is also omniscient. If god is omniscient it means that he knows everything that will happen. If he knows his own future how can he be free? ( saying he would change the future would be an argument against his perfection because if god must change his mind something he decided must be wrong, making him imperfect.)
Time, even in the way we interpret it, does not relate to God because of 2.) To understand 'future' and how free will applies to one's future, you must first understand 'time.' I don't know what time is, and I'm banking on the fact that you don't either. And if you did, you should explain it to me, and publish your explanation in every established science journal on the planet. You will probably win a Nobel prize. Right now you are arguing two opposing human notions on a concept that humans don't fully (or even partially) understand.

5) Man is supposed to have free will. If god is omnicient and knows every action a man will take, it is already predetermined and known. If it is known and predetermined how is it free will?

I don't know about God being omniscient. Unless you mean the God of the Bible? I can't think of any good argument against that if you mean the God of the Bible.

That's my humble input for the day. Good thread, by the way.

That Kid with the Hair · 06-08-2006, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essayist

Hello, Dylan. Essayist here. Found a few problems with your argument that I would like to discuss. First off, you said you find the idea of an eternal universe makes more sense than an eternal God. It does sound like it makes more sense, at least intuitively. Why invent a God who is eternal to create the universe when you could save yourself a step and say the universe itself is eternal? Let's analyze this, logically. If the universe is eternal, why do stars still exist? Surely they would have used up every last bit of their hydrogen by now (an infinitely long time has passed since eternity ago). Even if you believe in an infinite series of big-bangs and big-crunches, that doesn't explain away the astronomer's observations. Why is it that the rate of expansion is increasing? Why are galaxies moving away from each other, faster? So fast, in fact, that the pull of gravity won't be able to collapse them back together again for another cycle. Because the universe is eternal? Please help me better understand your position in that regard. Eternity can be defined as 'the absence of time' Time itself is a very hard thing to define as it is. It isn't something you can observe directly, but we can see and feel its effects. Think about that; if you were eternal, time doesn't effect you. You could exist everywhere at once. Or perhaps our primitive brains cannot interpret time correctly as its true nature occupies a higher dimension whereas superior brains would see what we interpret as time as clearly as something we interpret at space. I.e., they can see 'motion' directly as opposed to the way we observe motion--which is indirectly.

Your bit about entropy doesn't even apply to sentient beings. Or, to qualify that previous statement, entropy doesn't apply to intelligent beings. Given that you have no clue how intelligent any part of the universe is at any moment in time, or how intelligence and entropy are related (if they are related at all), then you cannot describe the entropy of the 'universe' in any meaningful way.

I will attempt to answer your 5 questions if you will keep an open mind. Sometimes ideas are deemed ridiculous, and answers obscure, simply because the person listening was not listening with an open mind.

1.) Why would god create the universe? He desired to commune with other free, rational beings.

2.) It is impossible for God to exist inside space and time. Maybe. Not because God created space and time, but because he is nonphysical. Space and time are states of physical systems.

3.) If god exists then he is all just and all merciful, these two are contradictions. Since these two contradict each other how does god exist? I'm not quite sure how you concluded that God is all just and all merciful given the assumption that God exists. Please elaborate on that.

4) To instill in people free will, god must have free will. God is also omniscient. If god is omniscient it means that he knows everything that will happen. If he knows his own future how can he be free? ( saying he would change the future would be an argument against his perfection because if god must change his mind something he decided must be wrong, making him imperfect.)
Time, even in the way we interpret it, does not relate to God because of 2.) To understand 'future' and how free will applies to one's future, you must first understand 'time.' I don't know what time is, and I'm banking on the fact that you don't either. And if you did, you should explain it to me, and publish your explanation in every established science journal on the planet. You will probably win a Nobel prize. Right now you are arguing two opposing human notions on a concept that humans don't fully (or even partially) understand.

5) Man is supposed to have free will. If god is omnicient and knows every action a man will take, it is already predetermined and known. If it is known and predetermined how is it free will?

I don't know about God being omniscient. Unless you mean the God of the Bible? I can't think of any good argument against that if you mean the God of the Bible.

That's my humble input for the day. Good thread, by the way.

Well, your attempt at answering the questions or even posing an argument failed miserably...you blanketed the topic with skeptical questions and proceeded to answer with a degree of vagueness so as to seem intelligent. Good tactic to fool dumb people. I, I'm afraid, am not one of the aforementioned, so you're out of luck.

chri$ · 06-08-2006, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by That Kid with the Hair

The argument made about the universe being eternal makes more sense than a god that is eternal. Think of this. An eternal god creating a non-eternal universe violates the second law of thermo-dynamics. this law states....The entropy of an isolated system not at equilibrium will tend to increase over time, approaching a maximum value. entropy is defined as.......... 2. A measure of the disorder or randomness in a closed system.

3. A measure of the loss of information in a transmitted message.

4. The tendency for all matter and energy in the universe to evolve toward a state of inert uniformity.

5. Inevitable and steady deterioration of a system or society.

if it says entropy will increase, that means our universe is deteriorating, and to say that it has always been there is disproved by science itself. scientists agree that the universe had a begining. having said that, it really only leaves two options. either the big bang....or creation.

Assuming the big bang did happen, and it did come from something; that would imply that there was a creator there is an interesting argument against that though which is:
1. The Big Bang has entropy S.
2. A hypothetical god is either orderly or chaotic.
1. Hypothetical gods have a personhood.
2. Personhood implies orderliness.
3. A hypothetical god is orderly, and thus has low entropy. (See note1 for more detail.)
3. In order for god to directly cause the Big Bang, he must have a lower entropy (S-a, where a is positive, real number).
4. The probability of the Big Bang coming from a higher state of entropy (S+b, where b is a positive, real number) approaches P=1, normalizing over the condition of many opportunities for the Big Bang to happen.
5. The probability of the Big Bang coming from an even lower state of entropy (god) approaches Q=0 (since Q=1-P).
6. The difference in probability is thus the limit of 1 divided by the limit of 0, which of course approaches infinity.
7. There is an infinitely greater chance that the Big Bang is the result of randomness than the result of even more order.
8. Thus, god does not exist.

Also there are other scientific theories that the universe has simply always been, and is a constant of the universe and that the universe simply contracts and expands reforming itself. I don't know the details so i can't go into deeper explanation.

Now I have a few questions.

1: Why would god create the universe? If god is perfect he has no needs or wants and thus would have no reason to create the universe.

2:If god is outside space and time, as the creator, it is impossible for him to exist inside space and time. Counter?

3: If god exists then he is all just and all merciful, these two are contradictions. Since these 2 contradict eachother how does god exist?

4: To instill in people free will, god must have free will. God is also omnicient. If god is omnicient it means that he knows everything that will happen. If he knows his own future how can he be free? ( saying he would change the future would be an argument against his perfection because if god must change his mind something he decided must be wrong, making him imperfect.)

5: Man is supposed to have free will. If god is omnicient and knows every action a man will take, it is already predetermined and known. If it is known and predetermined how is it free will?

P.S.--sorry for the terrible grammar and spelling.

Thanks-Dylan

your going hell hahaha

That Kid with the Hair · 06-08-2006, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chad26

I refuse to believe the Big Bang "did happen," since the theory has had to be modified numerous times to explain why astrophysicists keep finding stars that are OLDER THAN THE UNIVERSE.

The theory of a god has been modified far more times.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chad26

The theory also cannot explain why every observed galaxy is ACCELERATING towards the edge of the known universe at near-light speeds. There would have to be a force acting upon those galaxies at THIS VERY INSTANT to make that happen. So much for an explosion that occured billions of years ago.

You just answered your own question. A force big enough to continue to push every galaxy by means of an explosion. The force is still acting upon our galaxies.

Quote:

Honestly, I'm disappointed that this theory is still being taught; the scientific community has long since been reduced to trying to keep its absurdities a secret until a better theory comes along. Science and religion have much in common in this regard.

Your ideas on how the universe started?